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| Martin -- VTS http://www-.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=44992 |
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| Author: | kencierp [ Tue Jan 27, 2015 9:00 am ] |
| Post subject: | Martin -- VTS |
Seems Martin has actually taken the giant step required to make synthesized vintage sound board and bracing -- they now have their own torrification system -- VTS http://www.martinguitar.com/guitars/cus ... m-vts.html |
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| Author: | SteveSmith [ Tue Jan 27, 2015 10:52 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Martin -- VTS |
Interesting read. They are charging quite the premium, as I would have expected. I'd like to try some of em and see how they sound. |
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| Author: | DannyV [ Tue Jan 27, 2015 12:05 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Martin -- VTS |
I'm all about any effort to coax a sound you happen to be after out of a guitar. Good for them. To say the can set their time machine for a particular era of sound they are after, I have to say is a little comical.  It would be cool if I was wrong to laugh.
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| Author: | J De Rocher [ Tue Jan 27, 2015 12:45 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Martin -- VTS |
Maybe there really is something to torrefaction or perhaps a critical mass has been reached where everyone feels that they now have to jump on the marketing bandwagon. Or, possibly, both. |
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| Author: | mhammond [ Tue Jan 27, 2015 12:56 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Martin -- VTS |
I would guess most of us are baking our tops now. Has anyone figured out how to replace the air in the oven with the gas of choice? |
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| Author: | George L [ Tue Jan 27, 2015 1:51 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Martin -- VTS |
Comical indeed... and a little bit sad. |
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| Author: | MikeyV [ Tue Jan 27, 2015 2:54 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Martin -- VTS |
This is totally stupid. Nothing wrong with torrefaction, but Martin has decided to use it on the Authentics. What in the world would make them think that a torrefied top belongs on an Authentic? Rediculous. |
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| Author: | meddlingfool [ Tue Jan 27, 2015 4:16 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Martin -- VTS |
I'm doing my first torrefied guitar presently. All I can say is that it is very very staggeringly different than normal wood. I wonder if I will like the guitar... |
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| Author: | bluescreek [ Tue Jan 27, 2015 5:36 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Martin -- VTS |
I have made 2 torrified guitars it is interesting. I know martin uses a vendor for the process and it is much more than just a few hours in an oven. The 2 I made are sold off already. I think it is just an other option to offer. |
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| Author: | Hesh [ Tue Jan 27, 2015 6:42 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Martin -- VTS |
Reserving judgement here although I can relate to Danny's comments. It will be interesting to try one of these out and I'm sure we will pretty soon being authorized Martin repair guys. As commical as it may seem, even to me...., the guys at Martin are smart guys and for now I'm willing to wait and see what they came up with. Maybe by this summer after our current "mini ice age...." we'll get to try one. |
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| Author: | bftobin [ Tue Jan 27, 2015 10:12 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Martin -- VTS |
I'm sure it has some effect on the tone, but Mr Peabody and the 'Way Back Machine' come to mind. I'd like to hear some before passing judgement. Maybe it's just me, but I've heard a lot of + $1500 to $2500 Martins and Gibson that don't sound 'high end' these days. |
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| Author: | RaymundH [ Wed Jan 28, 2015 1:16 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Martin -- VTS |
Dana Bourgeois has been doing these for a few years now and they do sound very, very, good. I had the opportunity to visit his shop with a friend of mine and we got to handle to the new Bryan Sutton model as it was coming out. Needless to say it was quite a stunning piece, and as I mentioned before, sounded very good. I also think that Huss and Dalton are using this tops in there models. |
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| Author: | kencierp [ Wed Jan 28, 2015 1:27 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Martin -- VTS |
I believe Yamaha has used torrified material for years and I see even Recording King uses it too. What's really unique here is that Martin actually claims to be able to duplicate soundboards and bracing that has the same cell structure as actual instruments from a certain time period. |
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| Author: | sdsollod [ Wed Jan 28, 2015 1:30 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Martin -- VTS |
I have heard that some OLF folks are baking tops in thier kitchen oven, but I have not baked a top. How is it done? Is it worth doing? ...rare, medium, or well done... |
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| Author: | kencierp [ Wed Jan 28, 2015 1:46 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Martin -- VTS |
Torrification is not heating/baking --- it requires industrial equipment (an autoclave) which heats under pressure and also removes oxygen so the material does not burst into flames. I do recall a recent thread about baking ala Taylor process 200 degrees or so there were some ideas regarding holding fixtures etc. here's the thread viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=44864 |
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| Author: | George L [ Thu Jan 29, 2015 10:44 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Martin -- VTS |
Lots of people are using torrefaction, but only Martin can time travel. So, you know, it's very special. |
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| Author: | DanSavage [ Thu Jan 29, 2015 7:46 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Martin -- VTS |
DannyV wrote: To say the can set their time machine for a particular era of sound they are after, I have to say is a little comical. It would be cool if I was wrong to laugh.Here's my understanding of what they're doing. They microscopically analyze the crystalline structure of the wood on guitars from a particular era. They've developed the methodology to recreate that degree of crystallization in their torrefaction process. So, a guitar from the 1940s would be less crystallized than one from the 1910s, for example. If they want a guitar that sounds like it was made in the 1910s, they torrefy the wood to that degree, then build a guitar using that torrefied wood. When it's done it sounds like a guitar that was built in 1910 and has aged 100 years or so. |
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| Author: | Alex Kleon [ Thu Jan 29, 2015 8:49 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Martin -- VTS |
Well sure, it's easy for Martin when they have access to the right kind of technology. Attachment: image.jpg Alex |
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| Author: | J De Rocher [ Thu Jan 29, 2015 9:10 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Martin -- VTS |
I used to watch that show every week when I was a kid! DanSavage wrote: Here's my understanding of what they're doing. They microscopically analyze the crystalline structure of the wood on guitars from a particular era. They've developed the methodology to recreate that degree of crystallization in their torrefaction process. So, a guitar from the 1940s would be less crystallized than one from the 1910s, for example. If they want a guitar that sounds like it was made in the 1910s, they torrefy the wood to that degree, then build a guitar using that torrefied wood. When it's done it sounds like a guitar that was built in 1910 and has aged 100 years or so. This assumes that even if the crystalline structure of the wood can be made to match that of 1940s wood, that the degree of crystalization is a direct indicator of the wood's tone and is all you need to predict the wood's tone. It also assumes that if the torrefaction process can be used to match the crystalization of wood from a particular era, that any effects the process has on the wood in addition to crystalization are either the same as what happens with natural aging or are not important for tone. Maybe these things are true. What really chaps my hide is when people claim that torrefaction makes it possible to build a guitar with vintage tone because the torrefaction process replicates the natural aging process by the same mechanism. Torrefaction and natural aging are such fundamentally different processes that I find that very hard to believe. I think people are driven to make such claims to try to establish credibility for something that can easily be seen as marketing snake oil. We all know that vintage tone is a Holy Grail for many guitar players and many of them would be willing to pay for it if they can be convinced it's real. Maybe the process does end up producing top wood that results in guitars that sound like vintage guitars. I just wish people wouldn't resort to pseudo-scientific mumbo jumbo and just build the guitars and let them prove themselves in players' hands. |
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| Author: | Alex Kleon [ Thu Jan 29, 2015 9:29 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Martin -- VTS |
Are they putting a 100 year old finish on them as well? Replicating one component of a guitar is fine, but doesn't take into account the years of use, abuse, RH and temperature swings, string tension, etc, that those oldies have been subjected to. Alex |
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